Let’s face it, TF2 is great. Every gaming site I read on a regular basis says so (and I read two gaming sites on a regular basis), and all my friends enjoy it except the ones who have never tried it. I myself frequently experience feelings of enjoyment and satisfaction while playing it, and there’s apparently some rumor flying around that I might do a comic about it, which would also go some distance towards suggesting that I am a fan.
So, who could possibly complain about TF2?
“unfortunately tf2 doesnt have gameplay or graphics going for it“
Well, apparently people who play TF2, and other games, competitively, don’t feel it’s necessarily “all that.” I’ve been reading articles about TF2 in competitive gaming this morning, and it’s interesting to get a different take on the game I spend so much time playing. From the apparently endless 6v6 vs. 8v8 debate, to the universal cry to remove critical hits, to discussions on imposing time limits and class restrictions… these people are playing an entirely different game than I have been. Some of them don’t feel the game is fit for competition, being too cartoony and random. And some of them actually don’t like the game much at all. Weird.
“no game solely based on a “random” game generated critical strike will ever succeed. the release of CoD4 at the same time of TF2 ruined any chance the game ever had“
When I play TF2, I usually look for servers jam-packed with people. Anything less than 8 people on a team and I’ll usually pass. Not that I haven’t enjoyed small matches — I’ve even played some rousing 1-on-1 games — I just prefer the larger games because it allows me more freedom. If I want to play a engie, and there’s already a engie on my team… well, while that’s a problem in a small match, where you’d like to avoid doubling or tripling up on classes, in a large match you can have three or four of a class and still be well balanced.
Large matches also make it easier to play as a spy or sniper, who operate much better amid distraction, and we all know pyros are very effective when they plunge into a mob of enemies, rather than taking them down one at a time. At the same time, avoiding snipers and spies is easier on large matches because they have so many more targets. Win-win.
“the game isn’t suitable for comp play and eventually gets boring when everything is decided by WoW random number generators.”
Competition, however, trends toward the smaller matches, and I guess I can see why. Smaller groups are easier to organize, especially when playing LAN matches where everyone needs to be in the same physical location. The smaller the teams, generally, the more teams you’ll have to compete with one another. And it sounds like most competitive players feel that the fewer slots you have to fill, the better the chances you’ll fill them with quality players instead of any old internet riffraff (like me, for instance).
“TF2 is for kids.“
One thing I don’t see mentioned at all in the articles or even the comments is the respawn time, which is maybe the one aspect of the game I sometimes have a problem with — I hate anything over 10 seconds. There’s nothing worse than watching from heaven while the other team captures a few points or scuttles away with your intel as your birth clock slowly clicks down to zero. At the same time, instaspawning is annoying — killing someone as you enter the base, then killing him again when you reach the stairs, then killing him again in the basement, and then him finally killing you on your way back out. I like a happy medium in the resurrection department, and I think the respawn time contributes (negatively or positively) to the gameplay more than critical hits do.
“this game wouldn’t be so phucked up if valve didn’t NERF EVERY SINGLE WEAPON. “
Of course, there’s a huge desire among competitive gamers to play without crits, which I guess I can also understand. Crits are random, and if you’re playing competitively, you’d like the outcome and your personal stats to be as closely linked with your skills as possible. While I don’t see the comparison to World of Warcraft, in which randomness affects every single attack made, I too have been on a tear only to be taken out by a lucky crit from some low-scoring slob who couldn’t find a target with both hands and a pipe launcher.
Anyway, here’s two of the articles on competitive TF2 from GotFrag that I found genuinely interesting: The Great Debate and The State of the Game. The comments are especially illuminating (and, despite my obvious slant above, there are scores of positive ones). It’s interesting to see the game dissected from another angle.
19 responses so far ↓
1 Pixi // Feb 25, 2008 at 12:25 pm
A cvar in the console to disable crits ?
That would be awesome :D
2 Tom // Feb 25, 2008 at 12:49 pm
I actively dislike any respawn times less than 5 seconds - I appear, and find myself saying “Oh come on, I don’t deserve to be back in the game yet. I got owned.”
But over 20 seconds does seem daunting.
I’m not sure if the insta-spawn server admins realise that the game uses asymmetrical spawn times to balance all of the control-point based maps: the attacking or winning team gets to spawn faster, because if it were equal they’d never get anywhere against a strong defense. Which is what happens on all insta-spawn or fast-spawn servers.
Personally I think the solution is to a) cap it at 18 secs - more than that is silly - and b) let dead players talk to live ones. I know why this is disabled currently, but I disagree with it. If spectating is restricted to your own team, which it is by default and on nearly all servers, being able to do recon for the living guys doesn’t make a huge amount of difference to the enemy team, but it’d give you something to concentrate on and achieve while waiting to play again.
3 greeneggsnsam // Feb 25, 2008 at 12:52 pm
I adore Critical hits. They make the game more fun for you! how can you say it isn’t satisfying to get a one hit kill rocket right when you need it most? I really think it’s one of the best aspects of the game, and it doesn’t annoy me very much when I get hit by them. It’s all part of the game, and man, is it a great game. Also, respawn times don’t bother me either, because I know that they’re playtested so much that Valve are going to get it right- I can wait 20 seconds every now and then for a more balanced game.
4 Tom // Feb 25, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Just realised I phrased that first line stupidly - I’m talking about fast-respawn servers, of course. You don’t get respawn times that short with the game’s default settings.
5 Sinister Minister // Feb 25, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Some of those “arguments” placed in-between your paragraphs just sound dumb…TF2 is for kids? It’s pre-TF2 launch all over again. Doesn’t have the graphics for comp play? Uh, okay. I didn’t realize graphics had to be realistic to be good for that style of play. Nerfed every single weapon? I don’t see nerfing. I believe the Soldier’s rocket launcher still kills in 2-3 rockets like always.
As for respawn times, they never bothered me, because I can wait 10-15 seconds, or longer if needed. I’m in no rush to play, even when an enemy caps our points or grabs our intelligence.
And criticals–didn’t Valve say in their commentary that critical hits are a result of playing well? It seems so to me, but it could be random. I’m not an expert in this, so…yeah.
6 Christopher // Feb 25, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Tom, re: chatting while dead — then you’d miss out on all those great moments where someone is trying to tell you something but is cut off.
“Okay, guys, there’s a–”
And then you look up and see the backstab icon next to his name.
I’d miss that.
7 CitrusFreak // Feb 25, 2008 at 2:24 pm
I’m fairly certain that Sinister Minister is correct; You get crits far more often when you’re doing well. They are not entirely random.
A lot of the comments, especially the ones you quoted, remind me of youtube comments. Blech. I have no stomach for them.
8 Brinstar Brew // Feb 25, 2008 at 2:33 pm
I guess it’s not a good competitive game, but I guess competitive people can go play something else while the rest of us have a blast.
9 Ayrton // Feb 25, 2008 at 2:45 pm
greeneggsnam, the problem is it isn’t fun for the guy who just got owned on full health by some n00b with a random crit rocket. Trust me, I’ve had it done many times.
10 Wossname // Feb 25, 2008 at 2:50 pm
The complaint about the graphics just boggles my mind. This is simply the first FPS I’ve enjoyed to the exclusion of my usual RTS fare — and no small part of that is because I can so easily tell at a glance what’s going on.
11 Christopher // Feb 25, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Yeah, I can sort of understand most of the gripes when it comes from some sort of uber-competitive mindset… but I don’t get the dig about graphics. TF2 is gorgeous.
I think maybe the cartoonish nature of the game just subconsciously bothers hyper-competitive people who are looking for a dead-serious kill-or-be-killed environment. In TF2, even if you’re pwning, it’s hard to take yourself too seriously when your character says something like “Say goodbye to your stupid secret crap, morons!”
12 AR // Feb 25, 2008 at 5:05 pm
I have one word for these people: “Selfish”.
These are the guys who rush out on their own, and get pwned again and again. Put no effort or thought into holding a line or getting a small group and going in. Use the voice chat to berate team members who “get in their way”.
They may be more “skilled” than most players. Perfectly accurate, quick, etc. But they’ll get trounced again and again by people who understand that the game is TEAM fortress and who work together. And then they’ll complain that it’s the *game* that’s broken.
Crits, respawn times, etc. These are all in the game to keep it from getting “locked up”. They *are* unbalanced to favor the winning team. The only way to change that balance is to be a better *team*.
And the graphics are beautiful, clever and *fast* — no more clocking the quality down to get enough FPS.
People are retards. And I love TF2 :)
13 Inquisitor Saturn // Feb 25, 2008 at 7:18 pm
In my circle, these types are called “Tourneyfags.” They don’t seem to realize that expecting randomness is a skill in itself. They’re the same types who like to play one character on Super Smash Brothers, with no items, and only on the stage, “Final Destination.” And then they insult other players for a lack of skill when they can’t even play with most of the game features.
These guys are even worse… They take the game’s face value, it’s cartoony graphics, and judge it to be “for kids?” I’ll bet these are the same people who refused to play Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker for the same reason. BRIGHT COLORS ARE BAD! I WANT BROWN AND BLOOM! NOT BROWN AND BLOOM ENOUGH.
And how can TF2 be for kids when the characters in the game swear all the time, not to mention the showers of gore whenever someone is blown up?
These guys infuriate and sadden me at the same time. They’re the guys who are killing first person shooters.
14 Sinister Minister // Feb 25, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Oh god, the Smash Bros. “tourneyfags”. I can only wonder what they’re doing now that wavedashing is not in Brawl.
15 Tom // Feb 25, 2008 at 10:05 pm
You could still keep those moments, Chris - for the few seconds it takes to zoom in on his killer and tell him about any records he broke in that life, the player would be cut off from comms. So you’d maintain mortus interruptus.
Crits are related to how well you’re doing, but not in the way most people assume. I’m going to do a post about it on the PC Gamer blog, as soon as I can reasonably do so without turning it into The TF2 Show.
16 S* // Feb 25, 2008 at 11:34 pm
I usaualy have no problems organiseing 12on12 online matches, simply scream enouf in the microphone and people will listen :)
17 Man Raised By Puffins // Feb 26, 2008 at 5:40 am
If you haven’t already read it, this retrospective from 1up is quite interesting as Robin Walker outlines some of the intent behind the inclusion of crits.
I think I’m one of the few people who doesn’t mind the respawn timers getting as long as they do. It gives me a bit of time to see what the rest of the team is doing and check the situation at the caps, granted it can get frustrating as you watch on as the other team take the final cap but the overall effect on the game’s pacing is a good one I find.
18 Blaze // Feb 27, 2008 at 3:24 am
I don’t know what to make of tournament/competitive players. On one hand I think they take these games way too seriously and need to lighten up. But on the other hand, I kind of understand - when a tournament is being held and the grand prize is $1000, and you have guys with a high level of accuracy… semi-randomized elements like critical hits mean you could be unfairly “cheated” out of your money because somebody essentially flipped a coin and it did not land in your favor.
But on the other hand, that’s like a pitcher complaining because the slightest variation in wind messed up his fast ball. In real life, there’s a hundred thousand different variables - meaning that yes, in professional sports such as Football or Basketball - it’s possible to get a “lucky win”. You don’t hear people complaining about that - you just roll with the punches and do your best.
The only reason Pro-Gamers can complain is because they are allowed to control the simulation of the world. They are given the ability to turn off the elements that enable the so-called “lucky wins”. But even that is not true; for their own bodily functions often operate somewhat randomly, as well. Are they going to become robots to eliminate that element of “random”, too? If so, what’s the point? It’s like spectating an offline deathmatch in Unreal Tournament. That’s no fun.
I think they just need to lighten up.
19 Pentadact // Feb 29, 2008 at 10:19 am
“Crits are related to how well you’re doing, but not in the way most people assume. I’m going to do a post about it on the PC Gamer blog, as soon as I can reasonably do so without turning it into The TF2 Show.”
In the end I didn’t wait:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=183745
Leave a Comment