So, a couple things about Engineers.
Engie used to be my favorite class. I haven’t been playing as an engineer much lately, and the other night I figured out why. It’s because I usually don’t have much fun when I play as an engie anymore, in fact, I have a miserable time, and that’s because all my stupid engie crap is always getting blown up, and that, I think, is because everyone is getting pretty darn good at blowing up stupid engie crap. I know I am.
Used to be I’d run out of the spawn and toss down my teleporter entrance, refill, run back out in a hurry and find a spot to throw my sentry, hustle back for a refill, throw down my dispenser, hustle back again, return and whack my crap until it was built and beeping and breathing and beautiful, and then maybe I’d venture out to place my teleporter exit. I’d get some kills, my dispenser would heal some teammates, I’d fend off a couple spies, and eventually someone would blow up my stuff. But it was fun.
Here’s how it goes now. I run out, drop my entrance, refill, run out again, drop my sentry which is immediately blown up by an enemy. So, once he’s dead, I run back out and drop my sentry again, maybe get my dispenser built and then watch, again, as everything is blown up right in front of me.
While I’m refilling my metal I see my teleporter entrance die, then as I’m rebuilding my sentry I’m killed again. I get my sentry up but I’m backstabbed and my sentry gets sapped. Eventually, I get my sentry up to level 2 and my dispenser is being built but that’s when a slow rain of sticky bombs come sailing in from some distant alcove on the lower level and everything blows up including my body. On the odd occasion I get a teleporter exit working my entrance is immediately sapped, and then some soldier kills me with splash damage before wrecking everything else I’ve built.
Engineering, now, for me, is just an exercise in repetition and frustration.
I remember, back in the beta, you could set up your sentry in the 2fort basement and hold off an entire crowd at the doorway. A sentry in the hayloft used to completely stymie enemy soldiers. Sentries at the entrance forced the other team into the sewer, and a sentry in the enemy sewer could tie up half the other team for long minutes as they tried to take it down.
But I think that might be shifting a bit back the other way. Full disclosure: I’m not very good at playing an engie, so maybe it’s just me, but it seems like it’s getting a little harder for the Engineer to be an effective defender. Even an average soldier will wipe out my crap with very little difficulty. Overall, I’ve noticed people are playing demos incredibly well lately, and demos have become more of a threat to an engie’s buildings than a Spy is. If you build around a corner or on a ledge or overpass, Pyros know they can sneak up and burn your shit down from around the bend or under the ledge without ever getting in the line of fire.
Like I say, it’s entirely possible I completely suck or at least I’m just not getting better at being an engie while other people are getting better at playing other classes. I think with a couple engies on a team, or at least someone helping you protect your buildings, engies are still plenty effective. And, frankly, there are some entirely kickass engies out there who can hold down their points without much help.
But me, I need a lifeline. So, I want crits for sentries. Would the occasional sentry crit throw the balance way off the other way? Would it make the Engineer too powerful? I’d say sentry crits would definitely have to be less frequent than crits for the other classes, because a couple crit-flinging sentries in close-quarters would be pretty daunting. But I want them, because I miss having fun as an engie.
Before you suggest that rather than the entire balance of the game be shifted to address my epic butthurt and that perhaps I should just learn to play the class better, let me just inform you that I’ve already thought of that and it seems like far too much work for me, so I’d much prefer the game to be redesigned with my personal needs in mind.
I also wouldn’t mind seeing some of these TF2 stat over time, instead of just weekly, to see if the average number of people playing as engineer is dropping, or if the average kills per hour for the engie is dropping overall, or if it’s all in my imagination.
38 responses so far ↓
1 Mrmong // Apr 15, 2008 at 3:17 pm
senties are more of an annoyance than a threat
2 Tiler // Apr 15, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Well, it’s much like how the heavy-medic combo was utterly invincible for the longest time, but now whenever people see a medic healing a heavy, they go on an off about how the heavy is a noob class and how the medic should heal a demoman instead. At this point in time, demomen are the killer apps. There are people who, as a demo, can decide the entire game by their lonesome. Perhaps someday demomen will be countered by another class, and engies will start being more useful again.
3 Mrmong // Apr 15, 2008 at 3:39 pm
crit stickies are WMD’s
4 Gorebell // Apr 15, 2008 at 4:23 pm
It’s not just you. It’s ridiculous how easily sentries go down nowadays.
5 KoreRat // Apr 15, 2008 at 4:37 pm
I agree with you. I like(d) to play Engie, but I’m noticing how much more often my stuff gets blown to bits. Today as a matter of fact I was playing of Dustbowl and for two rounds never once got a Despencer completly built or got my Sentry above Level 2. I also noticed a major increase in the number of Demomen running around. I have a feeling they will tweak the Demoman, and then we can play Engies again.
6 Oliver // Apr 15, 2008 at 5:10 pm
I used to be an engie nutter, but now I’m a lot better as a sniper when back in the day I used to be lousy at it.
7 tm.Mr.Sin // Apr 15, 2008 at 5:11 pm
When I first started playing TF2 I was in love with being an engie (which is different than a tranny). I got to build stuff, help out my team, etc etc. Then me and the guys started talkin’ and someone mentioned (probably tmTheSonOfJorEl) how GREAT demos were. So I started to play demo.
A lot.
After about 150 hours of that I have recently decided to go back to being an engie.
Fuckin’ eggs bacon!
This article could NOT be more true! It’s not fun it’s FUSTRATING being an engie these days. I attribute it to everyone just getting good at blowin’ the engie’s stuff up (I know I got pretty damned good at it being a Demo). Now the challenge is finding places to build stuff.
“Ok…if I get a dispenser up over there, then jump up on it, then jump onto that railing, Tony Hawk my ass over to the light, jump in the air, get a tele exit build above me on the telephone pole, I can tele up there and get a sentry built.” I spend more time with a protrator, a tape measure, and bailing wire than I do playing.
So if yer on Hydro and a sentry on top of the dam kills you, it was proably me…and my trig calculator.
8 CitrusFreak12 // Apr 15, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Amen, brother.
9 MadTinkerer // Apr 15, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Perhaps the solution is to make the cost of Turrets cheaper: let engies plunk down two of them before needing to go back for more material.
I’m a bit of a TF2 n00b, having only played for a few hours so far, but it occurred to me that the Engineer class seemed a bit nerfed from the minute I first tried it. I plunk down one gadget and then I have to run all the way back to get more material for the second EVERY time I make something? Maybe that’s to keep engies from doing stuff like filling the enemy fort full of turrets, but it seems rather inefficient to me. If Soldiers can carry so many rockets, and Demomen so many bombs, why can’t engies carry around more building materials?
Also: is it just me, or does anyone else think it would be awesome if engies could make rollermines? Oh well, there’s always Garry’s Mod.
10 MadTinkerer // Apr 15, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Also: if anyone here happens to be the guy on the red team who was killed by a rocket last week because I accidentally blocked a doorway with a dispenser, I totally apologize. It won’t happen again, I promise.
11 AR // Apr 15, 2008 at 7:06 pm
I disagree.
Engineers, like all the other classes, have to play with the team in order to be effective (at least now that everyone “knows” how to play). It’s no longer possible to effectively play a lone engineer.
This means that an engineer either has to become part of a line of attackers, pushing forward against the other team. Or has to co-ordinate with other players to ensure their defensive sentry is covered against “around the corner” attacks.
This is a good thing.
12 noclip // Apr 15, 2008 at 7:37 pm
I sapped your sentry while you were typing that post.
13 mattias // Apr 15, 2008 at 9:46 pm
@Chris
Spy’s sappin’ your suggestion!
14 [@] Chronos[Ha-G] // Apr 15, 2008 at 10:35 pm
I think part of it may have to do with teamwork - or lack thereof.
From what I’ve observed, the average player plays as a team better on offense than on defense. I’ve had scores of matches where our offense was well organized and capable of holding their own, but our defense consisted of me and 1 or 2 other guys (I used to play TFC in a clan, and I always was on defense in that - I’ll gladly go defense over offense if I can). If you find a team that has both a well coordinated offense AND defense, it’s not as big a problem - if I join a game you’re playing, and you’re an engineer defending something, I’ll gladly go pyro and lend a hand. (Pyro’s my main class - even though you HATE us! Waaaaaaaa…. *cries off in the distance*)
15 Rico JB // Apr 15, 2008 at 10:42 pm
I also think the problem is not the class itself, but the lack of proper team play.
I get so frustrated when I am trying to build my defensive stand and I cannot find any metal because the other classes are fooling around shooting in the preparation time.
The worst is whne you built all for devices and you are next to another engie defending the same point, you got kill by a spy or whatever and in the 20 seconds it takes you to respawn and the other time to arrive all your stuff is gone and the other(s) engie(s) never took the time to fix it while you where gone.
With proper support between them or the other clases I think they can still be fun to play.
16 Lack_26 // Apr 15, 2008 at 11:54 pm
I’ve stopped both engie-ing and demo-ing recently, being an engie is to frustrating and being a demo, well now your not the one person on a team, there is a hoard of you. I prefer scout now because it is hard, fun and there is rarely more the 1 or 2 on a team.
17 Crane // Apr 16, 2008 at 1:54 am
It’s not as bad as playing Spy these days. When the enemy team is so paranoid that they’ll flamethrower you in the BACK as you run TOWARDS your own team, it’s just silly. I wish there were some incentive for players not to just randomly shoot everyone they see…
18 Punjabi Fury // Apr 16, 2008 at 3:50 am
I agree Crane.
I used to play spy a lot, but It’s just too hard now. I get at best probably 2 backstabs and a sap or two before dying. The only real use I can find as a spy these days is to serial-sap their stuff while my team charges in. And then I die.
I still think it’s possible to be a good spy, but it’s very, very hard unlike, say, a good medic. Which is a lot easier.
@Chris, I’m not sure whether I agree or not. I don’t think that crit sentries would balance it out, because the problem isn’t sentries’ damage, it’s the fact that people have found ways to take it out without being in the line of fire, as you said (demos, etc). In a one-on-one or even one-plus-medic-on-one with a level two or three sentry, the sentry will always come out on top.
Because you can’t suddenly make people forget how to deal with sentries, it’s not possible to balance the game back in that direction. But to tip the scale the other way, remove the lock-on time for sentries, for instance, would make them overpowered.
I think the reality is that engie, like the spy, has become a much harder class to play simply because people have learnt how to deal with them, and that’s not something that can be balanced. If sentries/engies were made more powerful, people would either adapt or give up. The first taking us back to the original problem, and the second ruining the game.
So Chris I guess you only have two options, 1: Learn to be a really, really, really, really, good engie, or 2: Play another class.
19 Punjabi Fury // Apr 16, 2008 at 3:51 am
That was a ridiculously long comment…
20 Pentadact // Apr 16, 2008 at 5:12 am
Despite a general feeling of agreement among the TF2 masses, proportion of people playing Engie has actually gone up since those stats started tracking. The Scout used to be the most played class overall - he’s now plummeted to sixth place, the Engie has taken first and climbed a little, Soldier and Demo have crept up behind him, and all other classes have gone down.
I don’t think his usefulness is problematically low at the moment - but I do agree the experience of playing him is essentially one of perpetual dismay.
An engie friend once said to me, “I’m not dying much, but every time I get something up they just blow it up and I have to build it all over again.” I’ve been the enemy in that situation, and it’s exasperating: your whole team focuses on taking out one set of stuff, the Soldiers and Snipers they weren’t concentrating on kill you, and by the time you’ve respawned all that shit’s straight back up again.
Even if your Sentry never fires a shot, the whole enemy team is having to think about, focus on and strategise around it. Huge swathes of the map are completely inaccessible to them for fear of that little thing.
Most Sentry-killer tactics have a counter, or are only viable against foolhardy Sentry positions. The one I do think is just kind of a bitch is the Demoman sticky pile-on. If I was going to buff the Engy, I’d give his Wrench the ability to defuse stickies in a single hit, so a good Engy could beat off the accumulating explosives. It wouldn’t deny the tactic in all cases, but nor should it. A good demoman ought to be able to do that. But it sucks that right now a good Engie can’t stop even a mediocre demoman like me from cack-handedly coating his killing aparatus in a spam-field of spiky doom.
There was a cool suggestion for an Engie unlock on the Steam forums that would also solve it: a Sentry that you can pick up and take with you. It’d have to take some time to set down again, but if you could nab it in a second or two, it’d save you from that slow build up. Maybe it could take just as long to deploy as a freshly built one, but cost no metal.
21 Pentadact // Apr 16, 2008 at 5:21 am
Incidentally, the Demoman has an inherent advantage against Engineer buildings. All weapons only ever do their “Extremely long range” damage against structures, but the Demoman’s Stickies - like the Sniper Rifle - don’t have any range fall-off. So at medium range, a Soldier is only doing half his normal damage for that range to a Sentry, whereas a Demoman chucking Stickies is doing full.
22 Half // Apr 16, 2008 at 6:47 am
I felt this way for a while, until I stopped caring about my sentries - if they get blown up, it does me no harm, except for it giving the enemy a point.
I play offensive engy now, placing sentries illogically to mess with people, and never trying to get them beyond level 2.
Another tactic - using the sentry as bait/a distraction while you put the shotgun to good use. You’d be surprised what you can kill with the combined firepower.
As long as you don’t stay right next to it, enemy’s will go for the sentry, not you. If they go for you, your sentry might finish them off anyway.
23 Dan // Apr 16, 2008 at 7:05 am
Well if you try to be a lone engie you’re not going to do well. TF2 encourages teamwork. Having a pyro help with defense almost completely eliminates spy threats to a sentry. Having another engie not only allows you to get two sentries up which will itself help keep enemies at bay but helps you get more sentries up. Plus dispensers are great for soldiers, demomen, and especially heavies. Who needs a medic when you CAN FIRE FOREVER? :D
It also helps if you place your sentries in different spots after they’re destroyed, confuses enemies. Try and experiment with finding new spots too.
I was playing yesterday and someone showed me how to build my way to the top of Gravel Pit’s B roof. Good times. I also enjoy building to the B BLU ledges. I can usually get a level 2 up soon after the gates open. If they all head to A I can usually get a level 3 up before anyone runs across it, and then my chances of staying alive longer improve considerably. Otherwise it’s about 50/50 based on what classes come out first and how quickly they realize I have a sentry there.
24 Dan // Apr 16, 2008 at 7:38 am
Er…
s/you’re not going to do well/you’re not going to do as well/
s/but helps you get more sentries up/but helps you get sentries up faster/
25 Ayrton // Apr 16, 2008 at 8:53 am
I’m hoping for new buildables for the engie that’ll help him out more. Instead of new weapons I want to build new stuff.
26 Christopher // Apr 16, 2008 at 9:31 am
Huh, P-Dact, a moveable sentry would be kinda cool. Maybe the drawback would be that as you move it, parts of it fall off. The longer you jostle it around, the weaker it gets until it completely falls apart.
27 ImperialCreed // Apr 16, 2008 at 10:06 am
I remember the glory days when no one knew how to kill a Sentry and I could rack up kill after kill just by sitting behind it with my dispenser. It never felt like babysitting because I could wander away in a pinch and unless a Spy was lying in wait it would still be there when I got back.
Now I rarely play Engi unless we absolutely need one. It’s just not fun for me anymore - in Pentadact’s words it really is an existence of perpetual dismay, where I’m rooted to the spot next to my Sentry because if I’m not hitting it with my wrench every few seconds then it’s dead.
I’d love for the Engi to be next in line for some unlocks and abilities. Being able to whack the crap out of Demo stickies is a must have I think - it’s a sensible counter and all it would take to defeat would be some co-ordination by maybe a pair of enemy Demos.
I’m less in favour of a mobile sentry than a chance to place a pair that can only be upgraded one tier, or not at all. (I think this may have been suggested by Pentadact in a podcast) Sentries are most effective covering one another and I think it would be nice to have the option of building a pair. A greater field of fire at the expense of firepower? I’d take it frankly, especially for something like the final capture on Dustbowl.
28 trapped // Apr 16, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Oh good, it’s not just me. xD I remember loving engineer in the initial days of the game, but since then it’s really waned until I only play it sparingly on 2fort.
Same with spy, I thought it was quite fun early on, but the paranoia that’s been established is ridiculous.
29 Mr_Wizard // Apr 16, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Another part of it is after playing engineer for so long, I know how to beat sentries with basically any class.
I have been a fan of a different mechanic with it. Instead of bullets or fire destroying a sentry, they disable it, and an Engineer has to repair it. Repairing it takes the same amount of material as upgrading it. Only explosives or the Spies sapper can completely destroy it. Wont help against the rocket spam or the Sticky exploitation, but it might mean not having to rebuild it as often.
30 Pentadact // Apr 16, 2008 at 3:54 pm
The two level-two Sentries unlockable idea was actually Robin Walker’s rather than mine - he gave it as an example of the sorts of things they’d like to do as future unlocks.
I’m assuming there’d be more to it than that - a level 3 sentry isn’t twice as powerful or tough as a level 2, so that’d be a no-brainer.
31 Baggie // Apr 16, 2008 at 6:12 pm
I’ve always found sentries to be what the second trailer said - area denial. I’m pretty good with engie, so my buildings tend to stay up for a bit, but if you have some assistance from you team then you’ve got a pretty awesome defense as opposed to frustration.
32 PoisonMushrooms // Apr 17, 2008 at 2:40 am
Another problem is people know where all the best places to set up sentries are.
Thats why I set up mine in really weird places that get a few kills because nobody expects it. Sure they are easily dispatched but it makes a difference.
33 Min Rizor // Apr 17, 2008 at 9:55 am
On pub servers it’s nearly impossible for Engineers to keep their crap un-exploded if their teammates don’t do jack shit to help them: the only real way to keep your stuff in proper working order on the front lines is to have at least one friendly Engineer in the same area helping out (help each other to build+maintain one Engie’s set of buildings first, then start working on the others) in a decent spot near a chokepoint where your teammates will be able to help you deal with threats (like the beginning and end of the alley in Dustbowl stage 3 and the middle hallway in the custom Casbah remake)… so teamwork is pretty much the only way to be a successful Engie these days. Building stuff where your teammates aren’t actively fighting and pushing is generally just asking for a Demoman, Pyro or Spy to come waltzing along and breaking all your stuff.
It’s getting impossible in general to play all vigilante… I find it to be a good thing more than bad, but it’s frustrating when teammates still try to make it on their own with only a bit of help from a Medic and an occasional trip to a dispenser, ammopack or locker.
34 roBurky // Apr 17, 2008 at 10:43 am
“Incidentally, the Demoman has an inherent advantage against Engineer buildings. All weapons only ever do their “Extremely long range” damage against structures, but the Demoman’s Stickies - like the Sniper Rifle - don’t have any range fall-off. So at medium range, a Soldier is only doing half his normal damage for that range to a Sentry, whereas a Demoman chucking Stickies is doing full.”
I’m pretty sure this is false. You do more damage against a sentry at close range, like you do against a player, and it’s fairly obvious. It’s the sentry’s damage to you that isn’t affected by range. Demoman’s stickies’ damage ARE affected by range, it was introduced in a patch.
35 roBurky // Apr 17, 2008 at 2:41 pm
On the subject of the original post:
I’m regularly killing off sentries as a medic. That possibly points to how far things have gone since the early days when I thought sentries were overpowered.
36 Suraj // Apr 18, 2008 at 9:28 am
I play engie and I play demoman. The trouble with playing engineer is that all sentry spots are marked out (at least on valve maps). A demoman can run blindfold and take out all sentries in one clip.
Good strategy for an engineer is to place sentries where enemy team is not expecting it and keep moving it around. Days of camping spots are over.
And if a demoman is laying stickies, just rush at him with your shotgun out. Demoman is a remarkably weak class for close combat (watch demo v/s scout).
Engineers have always relied on team support for keeping their stuff up I don’t feel that much has changed.
37 Panzer XIII // May 7, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Hello,
I have always believed demos to be overpowered.
1. They can UberJump with two stickies.
2. Their stickies are hella powerful.
3. A lucky crit nade is the solution to close combat, albeit a very unexpectable one.
However, Engineers, provided with the proper team help can be really good too. A good engie can even overpower an uber heavy + medic combo. I just stay behind the sentry so I don’t get hurt, and whack the SG with my wrench. Works with up to two ubered heavies.
Cheers,
Panzer XIII
38 Jesse Vazquez // Nov 13, 2008 at 4:11 am
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